45. Jane Chwick – Culture may eat strategy for breakfast, but technology eats the world!

October 16, 2022

Jane Chwick, the former Co-Chief Operating Officer of Goldman’s technology division, and a seasoned board member, talks about the critical impact of having a technologist on a board.

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ThoughtWorks – Technology Primer

Quotes

Getting my first board seat. The simplest way to say this, I followed the advice I had given to more junior people in my organization for years. I let people know what I wanted, I told everybody who asked me what I wanted to do or where I was going, that I wanted to sit on boards, and somehow it made its way through the grapevine

Importance of a technologist on the board. If you have even one technologist in the board room pushing back, and if it’s the right technologist, they’re pushing back in English to the right point, and it will inform the entire board. 

Big Ideas/Thoughts 

Extraordinary Women on Boards (EWOB). One of the things that Lisa Shalett has created that’s unbelievable about EWOB is on a monthly basis there’s a list of board seats that she puts out. She’s not a recruiting firm; recruiting firms, will talk to you about the one possible position that might be appropriate for you. Lisa sends out the email of all of the possible board seats, and it’s up to you to decide what you’re interested in and what you might want to view yourself as a fit for that you can apply to. That’s a very different model in the job search world or the board search world, and that’s been very valuable

Preparing for an IPO.  the IPO process was very interesting because the other boards I had joined were already public, and so this was bringing this company to an IPO and being part of it as a board member was very interesting.

The board met with all the big name investment bankers that you could possibly think of and interviewed them all and then we had board sessions around ranking them and deciding which ones would work the best for us and would meet our needs.

There were a lot of meetings along the way in terms of creating the right governance structure; we didn’t have a compensation committee, a nomination and governance committee, an audit committee and we had to make sure we had the right people on the board for those committees.

Don’t lose the secret sauce.  Sir Ian Davis was the managing director of McKinsey and is a very impressive person. With all of his background at McKinsey that’s helpful in learning how to scale, but he is very conscious to not break what ThoughtWorks is.  

Raza.  I love to tell everybody famous Agile seminal joke of the Pig and the Chicken.

A pig and a chicken get together and the chicken asks the pig, “Hey, should we open a restaurant?” And the pig says, “Hey, what are we going to call it?” And the chicken responds by saying “ham and eggs.”  The pig thinks for a little bit, and then says, “No, thank you. You’ll only be involved, but I’ll be committed.” 

This is the principle of committed versus involved in a stand-up meeting where people that are merely involved are not allowed to speak in a stand-up meeting. As one of the really important original works for Agile development that Martin Fowler and others did, I may not know ThoughtWorks, but as a recovering technologist I know Martin Fowler.

Voya Culture. We announced the new CEO of Voya in the summer and her name is Heather Lavallee and it’s very exciting because when I joined the board of Voya another woman and I were the first two women on the board. There were hardly any women in the senior, senior leadership team, and roll the clock forward, not only are there women in the senior leadership team, but the new CEO is a woman.  I think 50% or more of the board are female. It’s an amazing story

Transcript

Joe: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to On Boards, a deep dive at what drives business success. Hi, I’m Joe Ayoub, and I’m here with my co-host, Raza Shaikh. On Boards is about boards of directors and advisors and all aspects of governance. Twice a month, this is the place to hear about one of the most critically important aspects of any company or organization; its board of directors or advisors as well as the important issues that are facing boards, company leadership and stakeholders.

Raza: Joe and I speak with a wide range of guests and talk about what makes a board successful or unsuccessful, what it means to be an effective board member, the challenges boards are facing and how they’re addressing these challenges, and how to make your board one of the most valuable assets of your organization.

Joe: Our guest today is Jane Chwick. Jane was a partner Goldman Sachs, where she had [00:01:00] a 30-year career in technology, most recently as the co-chief operating officer of the technology division. Jane was also the co-founder and co-CEO of Trewtec, providing corporate directors, CEOs, and chief technology officers with the information they need to improve their oversight of a company’s technical function.

Raza: Jane has served on a number of public, private and not-for-profit boards. She currently is a director for M&T Bank, Voya Financial, MarketAccess and Thoughtworks. She’s the Chair of the Technology Innovation and Operations committee at Voya Financial and Chair of the risk committee at MarketAccess.

Joe: In addition, Jane has previously served on the board of Essent Insurance and was a member of the board of directors of Queens College Foundation, Girls Who Code and the Berkshire School. Welcome, [00:02:00] Jane. Thank you so much for joining us today on On Boards.

Jane: Thank you so much. I am honored to be here today. I’m looking forward to this discussion.

Joe: Thank you. One of the most impactful and impressive board groups that we’ve come to know is Extraordinary Women on Boards co-founded by one of our very favorite guests, Lisa Shalett. Tell us about how you came to join this extraordinary group.

Jane: Well, I actually joined it before it was an official EWOB group. Lisa was a fellow partner of mine at Goldman Sachs and we were friends. I retired a couple of years before she did and she lives right in my neighborhood, and so as soon as she was ready for what we call at Goldman Sachs “retirement,” which is really just a part two of life, she reached out to me and we started spending time together, but she started talking to me about bringing women together that were all in this similar transition phase of life and a part two, and she would organize events often sponsored by law firms and other [00:03:00] such companies in the city and bring in really amazing speakers. 

The group grew and everybody would bring in a couple more people they knew who were at our level and the group grew and grew and grew. At one point she decided it was time to make it an official group, EWOB, and it’s been amazing. 

Lisa has an incredible ability of bringing like-minded people together and not like-minded people as well, who have different ideas, different thoughts, and are all facing the same challenges of this part two of life and need to stay knowledgeable on various aspects.

Joe: What do you think is the most impressive feature about this group?

Jane: There are a number of them. One is the women themselves. These are women who have had successful careers, want to continue to give back and be part of society and be successful, but also want to help each other. I think that’s really, really critical. I think one of the [00:04:00] things that Lisa has created that’s unbelievable about this group is on about a monthly basis, there’s a list of board seats that she puts out, and she’s not a recruiting firm. Recruiting firms, when you talk to them and you talk to them about your interests, they’ll talk to you about the one possible position that might be appropriate for you. Lisa sends out the email of all of the possible board seats, and it’s up to you to decide what you’re interested in and what you might want to view yourself as a fit for that you can apply to. That’s a very different model in the job search world or the board search world, and that’s been very valuable. 

The other thing is she tries to find the holes. For example, I don’t use this because I’m still on the Goldman medical benefits, but she gives an alternative for people who no longer have medical insurance benefits. She tries to find those places that when we’re at this point, this stage in our lives, that are very useful. 

I think the other thing that is very important here that Lisa has [00:05:00] created for all of us is most of us, not all of us are moms, but those of us that were working moms, we didn’t get to become friends with the women in our neighborhoods in the same way. We didn’t create this social network of people that were like us because we were working, we’ve created networks of people in the companies that we were in or the direct circle, but it’s not like we went on Saturdays in general to play golf, because we had our kids at home, there are exceptions and I loved to play golf, but I didn’t start until my kids were grown up and gone.

 This was a way of creating that network of people for women who are now no longer in the workforce and no longer surrounded by the people that they were working with all the time, and I think it’s just a different twist.

Joe: Yeah, that’s great, and yet another layer that I had not even considered, what a terrific thing that is. How did you hear about, and ultimately join, your first board?

Jane: I would say the simplest way to say this, I followed the advice I had given to more [00:06:00]junior people in my organization for years. I let people know what I wanted. Goldman Sachs doesn’t allow people to sit on public company boards, and so when I made my decision to retire and I announced my retirement, I had put together a plan for myself as to what I wanted, and sitting on boards was one part of that plan.

 I told everybody who asked me what I wanted to do or where I was going, that I wanted to sit on boards, and somehow, it made its way through the grapevine, to an old manager of mine who had retired a few years back who had gotten a call for himself to be on the board of MarketAccess, and he was on the board of Dell. He didn’t have capacity and he recommended me, and it started from there and then it just went. I was in the right place at a right time. I was a technologist and I’m a woman. Eventually the other boards came along because they really needed to put women on their boards and being a technologist again was a very helpful attribute.

Joe: Yeah, no kidding. I think it’s probably one of [00:07:00] the most highly desirable areas of skills and expertise that boards are now seeking. One of the boards I wanted to talk about was ThoughtWorks. Tell us a little about ThoughtWorks and your role with them, and particularly some of the things that occurred prior to taking it public.

Jane: ThoughtWorks in 2017, a private equity company bought ThoughtWorks, Apax Partners, and they bought it from the founder and the founder was no longer involved at all. He didn’t even stay on through the transition, that wasn’t of the deal. ThoughtWorks is a premier technology company. It really is. The technologists are all elite. It’s not that other places don’t have great technologists, but at ThoughtWorks, everybody is a great technologist, and they really take tremendous pride on that. They cost a little bit more because of it, because you don’t get things for free, but at the end you have a cheaper technology platform to maintain if it’s built correctly so in the long run it’s a lot cheaper to use ThoughtWorks.[00:08:00]

Apax bought this private equity firm who you would think would try to squeeze and take every dollar out of the ThoughtWorks model, but they haven’t. They’ve done an amazing job at keeping what was very special about ThoughtWorks and trying to find the efficiencies in the other places within the company.

 Even to the point we went public in 2021, September, but when we were trying to decide what the liquidity moment would be or the exit strategy would be for Apax Partners, and by the way, Apax is still very much involved, we took a look and said we could sell to another private equity company who would highly likely break the spirit of ThoughtWorks or we could IPO and continue to operate in the same way and keep what makes ThoughtWorks special, which is the route we went. 

For me personally, though, just the IPO process was very interesting because the other boards I had joined were already public, and so this was bringing this company to an [00:09:00] IPO and being part of it as a board member was very interesting.

Joe: What are the things you did to prepare for the IPO from a board perspective?

Jane: I did some reading. The board itself, we met with all the big name investment bankers that you could possibly think of and interviewed them all and then we had board sessions around ranking them and deciding which ones would work the best for us and would meet our needs. There was a lot of meetings along the way in terms of creating the right governance structure, because a private company board, I don’t think typically has committees and we didn’t have any, and so we had to create a compensation committee, a nomination and governance committee, an audit committee. We had to make sure we had the right people. 

We were a very small board before that. It was really the Apax Partners, plus three independent directors and we needed to round it out so we brought two more directors, both of them, by the way, we found on EWOB, and was fantastic and we really rounded it out and now we have all the things in place. That doesn’t mean [00:10:00] we’re done. It’s an evolution and your improvements on governance never end.

Joe: Then you also brought in a new chair, as I recall.

Jane: We brought in Sir Ian Davis. He was the managing director of McKinsey. He’s a very impressive person. And again, with all of his background at McKinsey, that’s helpful in learning how to scale and so forth, but he is very conscious and it is an important topic, even in the boardroom, to not break what ThoughtWorks is.

Joe: To not… I’m sorry.

Jane: Not break what ThoughtWorks is, to not hurt, to not drive away those elite technologists that make us special.

Joe: That’s an interesting thing to think about. What are the things that the board would be concerned about, that someone coming from the outside from a place like McKinsey might do that could change things in a way that would make it something other than it is?

Jane: There’s a lot of ways to build technology, and there’s a lot of different concepts and a lot of different ideas, and there were moments in time where you can take [00:11:00] shortcuts and do things tactically and there’s moments in time where you build things in a more rigorous way. Depending on how you build that back to the cost of maintaining that platform in the future and evolving it and continuing to grow it, if you don’t build that properly, it will be much more expensive to maintain. These elite technologists are very focused on building things properly. 

The other thing that they do differently is most technology companies believe in specialists. You can become a specialist in some data space. You can become a specialist in building games. You can become a specialist in kind of the graphical user interface. At ThoughtWorks, they believe that once you are a technologist, you should be equally great at understanding and building the technology in all aspects, and they ensure that their technologists have the full foundation of what is needed.

At an in-depth level, it’s quite incredible. It goes back [00:12:00] to they view that they need the brightest and the smartest to be able to learn all of these parts, and so they can throw their great technologists at a myriad of problems, so you don’t go in there and all you’re doing is the screen. You’re doing the whole thing.

Joe: What is it that has allowed them to attract such terrific talent, both in the management side and on the board side?

Jane: It starts from the start of ThoughtWorks. In ThoughtWorks, the chief scientist at ThoughtWorks, a guy named Martin Fowler, he was part of the group that actually created Agile, and if you talk to technologists, many, many of them, they know Martin Fowler, he’s a hero to them and it just expands and expands and expands. ThoughtWorks talks at a lot of deep technical technology conferences. They’re viewed as thought leaders in so many spaces in technology.

Raza: Jane, I must bring in that I’m one of those fanboys for Martin Fowler. I still to date send out the link of how to run a good [00:13:00] stand-up meeting from Martin Fowler, and I love to tell everybody famous Agile seminal joke of the Pig and the Chicken, where a pig and a chicken get together and the chicken asked the pig, “Hey, should we open a restaurant?” And the pig says, “Hey, what are we going to call it?” And the chicken responds by saying “ham and eggs” and the pig thinks for a little bit, and then says, “No, thank you. You’ll only be involved, but I’ll be committed.” This is the principle of committed versus involved in a stand-up meeting where people that are merely involved are not allowed to speak in a stand-up meeting. As one of the really important original works for Agile development that Martin Fowler and others did, I may not know ThoughtWorks, but I knew Martin Fowler as a recovering technologist

Joe: I want to say that’s one of the best jokes you’ve told in the six seasons we’ve been doing this. 

Raza: Jane. Maybe talk about the M&T Bank. What kind of, or what size of bank it is, or what’s the [00:14:00] character of the bank, the culture, and talk a little bit about the board for the bank and how it’s kind of maybe a little different than regular boards?

Jane: Okay. Sure. I’m happy to. First of all, I’ve only been on the M&T Bank board for about six months now, maybe not even, four or five months, so I don’t have a lot of experience and history. I’m still learning. I was on the board of People’s United Bank for about three, four years and M&T acquired People’s. It took a long time to get the Fed to approve it, but we finally closed and I think it was April of this past year. M&T is now with post-acquisition. It’s the 11th largest bank in the country. It’s very impressive. 

The Chairman/CEO is Rene Jones. I’m very lucky. all my boards, I’m very impressed with all the CEOs. He’s very innovative and he also knows where M&T should fit in the landscape of banks. He’s not competing with JP Morgan. He really wants to be a community bank, and so they try to find the balance of operating at scale, but [00:15:00] getting into the communities where they operate and being a real part of the worlds that they live in, as opposed to the big, big macro world.

He’s very focused on innovation. He has a huge technology strategy. He and the CIO, Mike Wisler, who came from Capital Bank, have created an innovation lab in Buffalo and they’re hiring about a thousand technologists. They’ve built a technology office building, they’ve taken over a building and refurbished it, and I had a tour of it back in August. It’s very impressive what they’re doing and they’re working with the incubators and trying to find the right possible software ideas to bring into M&T Bank.

Raza: Wow. It is very impressive and it also aligns very well with the saying that software eats the world, every company is a technology company or a software company in the end. Jane, as you mentioned, you recently joined the board. How was the onboarding process [00:16:00] for you? A lot of the times boards may or may not have a great process or a formal process. For a bank,

I presume it included that, or it was just a carry over from the People’s Bank.

Jane: Nope. There was a formal onboarding process. We’re in a COVID world. We are still somewhat in a COVID world so it was a virtual process, and I, along with three other board members, the four of us, came over from People’s United, the Chair/CEO of People’s United, President of People’s United and another board member and myself, and we all did the onboarding together, and there was a video call with the heads of all of the major areas that did a walkthrough of their areas. 

Raza: Jane, maybe we can then switch to talking about the Voya Financial board that you’re on. Talk about the background for Voya Financial. I didn’t know where they came from and what they do, and then again, maybe describe the board and what the board is thinking [00:17:00] about in that organization.

Jane: Sure. One of the things I love about what I do is every board, every company where I’m on the board is in a different place in its life cycle and has faced very different challenges. I joined the board of Voya Financial in 2014, April or may around there, and Voya was a brand new company and it had come from ING.

Back in 2008 during the crisis, ING was going to go under. The Netherlands bailed them out but said, “You need to split. You’re too big. We’re not telling you how you have to split, but you need to split up.” And so they separated out the asset management and retirement and insurance businesses in the US split them out and created Voya.

When I joined Voya, it was at the time where it wasn’t an on-off switch. They were selling off little by little and they got to a certain percentage. It might have been 50%, I’m not quite sure, but that’s when I joined the board, and I was, along with another woman, [00:18:00] the first two board members who joined once ING no longer control like it, it had turned the corner. 

The CEO, so back up one more thing, Voya, at that point, had been created by the collection of acquisitions in the US, and so step one was really to create one Voya; one Voya brand, one Voya platform, one Voya, so that all the Voya employees around the country really felt like they were part of the company.

He did that unbelievably well. At the same time it was about transforming and figuring out how to rationalize the platforms, because if you imagine it’s come from all these acquisitions and the inefficiencies was tremendously around that, then it was figuring out what businesses we wanted to be in, so we spent a couple of years divesting from businesses that weren’t where or what we wanted to be in the future. 

All that is done, Voya is a company that is so focused on helping society. It’s got such an amazing culture [00:19:00] from that perspective, and they even created an organization called Voya Cares that focuses on people with disabilities, it’s amazing. 

All of this has happened and we’re at a place now where, “Okay, now we have a strategy of where we want to go and the Chairman/CEO has been there for a long time so we spent over a year trying to identify who the new CEO would be, and we announced the new CEO in the summer and her name is Heather Lavallee and it’s very exciting because when I joined the board of Voya, and like I said, another woman and I joined at the same time, we were the first two women on the board. There was hardly any women in the senior, senior leadership team, and roll the clock forward, not only are there women in the senior leadership team, but the new CEO is a woman. It’s an amazing story. I think 50% or more of the board are female.

Joe: I love the story you told. I think you said that you went to the CEO at one point and said, ” You’ve done a great job in [00:20:00] diversifying your board, but what are you doing with leadership?” And I thought his response was really interesting.

Jane: Yeah. He said, “Be patient. I’m getting there.” And he did. He’s quite amazing. Listen, I said I’m very lucky because the four public company boards that I’m on, they’re all outstanding Chairmen/CEOs.

Joe: One follow up is you said that Voya is invested in helping society. Could you let us know a little bit about what that means?

Jane: I told you a little bit about Voya Cares. I’ll focus a little bit on it internally for their employees because that’s part of it all. They are all a hundred percent hybrid, and there’s no mandate that says you have to be in three days a week. Let me say it differently, not a hundred percent hybrid. They’re a hundred percent remote, but if you want to come into the office, you can.

They have invested heavily on platforms that help employees to work effectively and efficiently at home, but also to reserve space when they want to go into an office. They care deeply about diversity. They care deeply about all types of [00:21:00] people and they practice what they preach.

Joe: Has that led to benefits in terms of the company’s performance?

Jane: I think so. You should look at the stock price. I think we’ve done well, but we’re not driven on a short-term basis by the stock price but the company has done very well.

Joe: That’s great. Yeah, I didn’t think it was short term. Based on the story you’ve told us about them, it sounds quite the opposite.

Jane: It’s been the recipient of many awards and I wish I had the list in front of me of the years in a row of most ethical company, and there’s a long list of them.

Joe: One of the things that I found most interesting about your background, and it’s a very interesting background, is that you are a co-founder of Trewtec. Talk about how that came into being, who you founded it with and what its purpose was, and then I have some questions to follow that up with.

Jane: Well, I like the fact that you say was because it is past tense. Trewtec lived for a number of years, but we closed it down. Beth Stewart who runs a search firm for women [00:22:00] board members called Trewstar. she’s done a really great job, placed so many women on boards and she started it before she came to me, and she had been a board member herself, by the way. She came to me with this premise that people get on boards and they’re accountable for ensuring, from a technology point of view, things are going okay, but they really don’t understand technology.

This was from a few years ago when there weren’t many technologists on boards It was rare. Her view was just like there’s independent auditors, there should be independent technology reviewers hired by the board to come in and do a very high-level assessment of the technology strategy, platforms and so forth of a company, not deep cyber reviews or anything like that. It is just an across the board. Do you have the right leadership? Are you on the right path? Will you be able to implement the right technologies, and so forth, and I thought it was a great idea and she asked me if I wanted to do it with her. I said, “Sure, but I’m not a salesperson. I don’t want to be a [00:23:00] salesperson and I don’t want to sell.” 

We agreed to do it. We put it together. We built the platform. I had a network of retired CIOs to tap on the shoulder and we sent out teams. We had approaches that kept our data confidential, and so everything was all set and she got us our first pilot client and it went well, we learned a lot. 

Then I used my old network to find us another four or five, because one of the things we learned in the process is for companies to sign up to this, you really have to have the CIO-level person do the sale because that’s really the whole point here. As I started, I don’t like to sell. I mentioned it, and one of the things in this part two of my life is I am not going to do the things that don’t make me happy, and selling doesn’t make me happy. Once we realized that for this to be successful, I would need to be the salesperson in this initiative. I said, “I’m sorry, Beth. [00:24:00] I can’t do this.” The good news is we closed down the company. The company did very well, but we closed it down, and she’s still a good friend of mine. 

Joe: That is great news. One of the questions I have is what Trewtec did, or my understanding of what Trewtec did was that it helped explain in a simple way, for the uninitiated, very complicated technology, and I’ve sat on a number of boards and I’ve sat in on board meetings and I think it is absolutely true. Even if you have a technologist on the board, the rest of the board still needs to understand it too. It’s great to have an expert on the board, but that isn’t enough, so who is out there that’s doing what Trewtec did?

Jane: I don’t think anybody is out there doing what Trewtec did, and I do think there is a need for Trewtec, but what’s been done instead is ensuring there is a technologist on every board who can act as the translator. Because when you think of a lawyer, a lawyer has a specialty, has an expertise. They’re not gonna be an expert at everything, but if [00:25:00] another lawyer comes in to talk about a legal topic, even if it’s not their legal expertise, they can push back with confidence, and that’s what happens in the boardroom. If you have the one technologist in the room pushing back, and if it’s the right technologist, they’re pushing back in English to the right point.

You can’t bring the conversation to a level where the other board members glaze over. You need to learn as a board member when is the right time to say, “Why don’t we take this one offline,” but you can ask the right questions at a level that the other directors can understand and over time they’ll get it.

It’s the same thing as I’m not a financial expert, but I can ask questions and I’ve learned enough because I’ve heard the experts in the room ask enough questions. I’ll never be as good as them, and that’s not my role in that boardroom, but over time I’ve gotten better at it and I’ve learned more, but I’m not going to be the big pusher backer.

Joe: I think that is an excellent explanation of the power of diversity of [00:26:00] perspective and skills on a board, because being able to ask, we like to say the third question or the fourth, not the first question, which is, how are you doing today? But the real questions that matter, the third and the fourth question, which most board members, if you get too technical, or as you said, if it’s a legal issue or whatever it may be, that is the reason you do this, and I think you’re right about that. I still think that the idea of having a company that does what Trewtec did would be a great idea. 

Raza: I think one question to ask was like, how does one become a technologist? Can this be done top down as well where a non-technologist board member can learn a lot about these things? Or do you have to have that perspective come from bottom up by doing it by being a technologist all those years, and then being able to bring that? Maybe advice for training board members on how to be the technologist on the board.

Jane: You just asked [00:27:00] two different questions. To be the technologist on the board, you really need to have deep and very broad expertise, and that was like back to the lawyer example or the finance expert example, it’s very hard without significant studying, but that doesn’t mean you can’t add value in that space. 

And that does mean reading, it does mean educating yourself, it does mean not being afraid to ask questions. I’ll bring you back to ThoughtWorks. ThoughtWorks has almost a technology for dummies publication, which is quite amazing where they’ve taken a lot of the technology words, technology segments and sectors and synthesized it in business words, and you should go on their website and go find this document because it’s quite amazing. It makes you a little bit less afraid, and the more you read and you can read it, and you can’t have a bar for yourself that you’re going to be an expert, but you’ll get more confidence around pushing back and asking [00:28:00] question.

Raza: Maybe yoi read the book called the Phoenix Project or other books that are written that explain technology and other paradigms in more English language. The Phoenix Project is written as a novel. It comes as a story, but it’s about a technologist and the opening scene is where he’s brought into the CEO’s office and told that his boss and his boss has been fired, and he’s now in charge for running technology in the company.

Joe: How does it go? I mean, how does come out in the end?

Raza: That’s actually also a really seminal book behind the DevOps movement, for example, and a lot of the concepts. There is usually a wall between, let’s say, dev and business and dev and deployment and production and how the principles of continuous integration, bring all of that together in real world, large software solutions. It’s a really good, easy read. 

Jane: Started out as a developer or have you just become a [00:29:00] very knowledgeable person?

Raza: I did start as a developer. I’m recovering, I haven’t coded in the last 20 years. I’m not counting the Excel macros that I did, but it kind of stays with you.

Jane: It does stay with you.

Joe: Well, I’m glad we brought you two together. Jane, thank you so much for joining us today on On Boards. It’s been a pleasure having you.

Jane: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It’s a great conversation.

Joe: And thank you all for listening to On Boards with our guest, Jane Chwick.

Raza: Please Please visit our website at OnBoardsPodcast.com. That’s OnBoardsPodcast.com. We’d love to hear your comments, suggestions, and feedback.

Joe: And please stay safe and take care of yourselves, your families, and your communities as best you can. We hope you’ll tune in for the next episode of On Boards. Thanks.

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