In this episode of On Boards, Dr. Keith Dorsey an executive coach, author, active board member, and expert in leadership development and corporate governance joins hosts Joe Ayoub and Raza Shaikh 

His book, The Boardroom Journey: Practical Guidance for Women to Secure a Seat at the Table, provides insights and strategies for women aspiring to become board members. 

Keith holds a doctorate in Organizational Change and Leadership from the University of Southern California and serves on multiple boards including Vimly Benefit Solutions, Pacific Crest Trail Association and Pepperdine University’s Graziadio Business School. He discusses his research-based concept of “optimal diversity,” which couples demographic diversity and diversity of thought. 

His work has been widely published including the Harvard Business Review, MIT Sloan Management, Forbes and Fast Company. 

Key takeaways

1. Keith’s life in 3 chapters

• Keith started his career in the U.S. military and the Air Force, followed by nearly 30 years working in corporate America. In 2019, he went back to school to get a doctorate in organizational change in leadership from the University of Southern California. Now, he serves as an executive advisor to lead corporate leaders to optimize boardroom practices. 

2. What is optimal diversity?

• While getting his doctorate, Keith started to research the lack of gender and ethnic diversity on corporate boards.
• He discovered the concept of “optimal diversity” – the combination of observable diversity and/or demographic diversity along with diversity of thought. This idea encourages people to reflect beyond their observable traits and dive deeper into how their lived experiences and perspectives can contribute to diversity. 

3. Pre-vetting: It’s about who knows you, not who you know 

• Keith found through his studies that executives who serve on boards, were very often seated through their network. When it comes time to recruit another board member the question that is often asked is: “who do we know.”
• When it comes to joining a corporate board, it’s about who knows you and understands your experience and skills. In addition to giving your “autopilot intro” while networking, he encourages aspiring board members to take a few extra seconds to go beyond the details of your day-to-day job and tell them what you’re looking to do.  

4. Five different “capitals”

• Keith’s book dedicates a chapter to each type of capital: human, social, cultural, director, and commitment.
• During his research, Keith found that women often take the approach of presenting themselves as exceptional executives but not as exemplary board members. He encourages people to optimize their human capital. During board interviews, exhibit the type of behavior that they would want to see in the boardroom.  

Quotes

 ” Optimal” diversity forces people to really reflect and to think about the things that make who they beyond just their observable demographic traits, including their lived experiences.

“It’s best to look out the front windshield and be able to say what’s beyond that S-curve and that sharp right curve ahead by asking thought provoking questions based on your human capital…instead of looking through the rear-view mirror and shouting your praises.”

“ Figure out who you are and what your superpowers and secret sauce actually are and then incorporate that in a way of getting your name out there so more people know you than you know”

Links

https://www.boardroomjourney.com/

The Boardroom Journey: Practical Guidance for Women to Secure a Seat at the Table

How Board Sourcing Approaches Contribute To The Corporate Diversity Problem—And What To Do About It

Guest Bio

Dr. Keith D. Dorsey is a researcher, author, advisor, and active board member focused on issues of diversity, governance, and strategic growth for private and public corporate boards. His recent research examined women executives’ pathways to securing corporate board seats, yielding powerful insights about the barriers and facilitators unique to women candidates seeking these positions. His book, The Boardroom Journey: Practical Guidance for Women to Secure a Seat at the Table, combines his research insights with his extensive executive, board, and industry experience. He speaks on topics related to governance and navigating the path to the C suite and boardroom. As an executive advisor, he is focused on increasing Optimal DiversityTM within corporate senior management, executive, and board-level roles. 

Transcription

Joe: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to On Boards A deep dive at what drives business success. I’m Joe Ayoub and I’m here with my co-host Raza Shaikh Twice a month On Boards is the place to learn about one of the most critically important aspects of any company or organization. its board of directors or advisors with a focus on the important issues that are facing boards, company leadership, and stakeholders.

Raza: Joe and I speak with a wide range of guests and talk about what makes a board successful or unsuccessful, what it means to be an effective board member, and how to make your board one of the most valuable assets of your organization.

Joe: Before we introduce our guest, we want to thank the law firm of Nutter McClennen Fish, who are again sponsoring Nutter has been an incredible partner with us in every [00:01:00] way. We appreciate all they’ve done to support this podcast.

Our guest today is Dr. Keith Dorsey. Keith is a renowned executive coach, author, and expert in leadership development and corporate governance. With over 25 years of governance experience, Keith is passionate about helping leaders and public officials secure seats in the corporate boardroom.

Raza: His new book, The Boardroom Journey: Practical Guidance for Women to Secure a Seat at the Table released on May 7th, 2025 offers insights and actionable strategies for aspiring board members and independent directors seeking their first or their next board seat.

Joe: Keith’s approach to achieving optimal diversity in corporate governance is an extremely thoughtful path to a critical goal of all high-performing boards, a [00:02:00] diversity of skills and perspectives. Welcome Keith, it’s great to have you today with us on On Boards.

Kieth: It’s great to be here, Joe and Raza. Thank you.

Joe: So, Keith, a lot of our guests have interesting backgrounds. I would say that yours kind of true to optimal diversity is a very diverse background, so it would be great to just spend a few minutes about your journey to where you are now in the boardroom ecosystem.

Kieth: Yeah. Joe, I often tell people that this is my third chapter. The first was the US military, the air Force for a number of years, and then my second chapter was just under 30 years in corporate America where I worked primarily for two organizations, two companies, a Fortune 1000 for almost 17 years, and a Fortune 500 for almost 12 years, in which in both organizations I ran very, very large sales teams [00:03:00] and I became what you would call a strategic growth expert and a turnaround specialist throughout those years in what I would call my second chapter.

Then the third chapter began in January of 2019 where I entered what I would call my portfolio career of doing a little bit of this and a little bit of that. I started executive advisory work. I started serving on boards, and then I went back to school to get my doctorate in organizational change in leadership and all my research was around the lack of gender and ethnic diversity on corporate boards, corporate board refreshment, corporate board governance, and that’s when I was recruited by an executive search firm.

After I completed my doctorate at the University of Southern California, a global executive search firm reached out to me and said, “Keith, with your 30 years of strategic [00:04:00] growth experience leading very, very large sales teams in corporate America coupled with your research around corporate board governance, corporate board diversity, corporate board refreshment, we think you will be excellent in executive search.” And after many conversations, I actually ended up taking a role with them as a managing partner and their practice leader for CEO and board services in the US.

So, this portfolio career, which was supposed to be my semi-retirement, actually has turned into something much bigger, and I continued all my research and studies post-doctorate and I continued to write for various periodicals. I have published articles in Harvard Business Review, MIT Sloan Management, Forbes, Fast Company, Directors & Boards and others.

Joe: What was it that motivated you to go back and get your doctorate?[00:05:00] 

Kieth: Great question there. When I left corporate America, I left kind of prematurely, and I planned on entering this third chapter of my portfolio career probably in 2022, 2023. But in 2019, offer was put in front of me by Blackstone and my company that was owned by Blackstone, and basically was an offer I couldn’t refuse, to actually move out of the company and begin to do something else.

It was at that particular point that I said this portfolio career is the right way to go, but I lost my identity and I didn’t realize my identity was so wrapped up into being an executive until one day it hit me, and at that particular point, I came up with this great idea because I was suffering from a little bit of imposter syndrome, and my great idea was I’m going to apply to [00:06:00] many different universities and to a doctorate program to see if I can actually get in.

So, in Dorsey fashion, I applied to seven different universities, eight different doctoral programs just to see if I can get in. What I didn’t really piece together properly was how much I need it for every single application and how many references I needed for each application. So, I ended up reaching out to 14 to 15 different former executive friends to serve as my reference for all those applications just to see if I can get in to boost my ego. They didn’t know that.

Joe: Now, everyone knows.

Kieth: Exactly, and many of them kept reaching out to me and said, “Look, I wrote a great reference letter for you. I know you didn’t see it, it went directly to the university. Which one are you choosing and which ones did you get into?” And I actually ended up getting accepted at all seven [00:07:00] universities, all eight programs, and I now have 15 accountability partners asking me which one was I going to go to, which my intentions were just to boost my ego and to see if I can get accepted, but with all those accountability partners, I ended up choosing the University of Southern California.

I really didn’t have a strong enough why to make it through such a rigorous program, but fortunately, I had the intestinal fortitude to do it, and I am so glad because it set me off on a completely different trajectory. Nevertheless, I never intended on actually getting my doctorate.

Joe: Amazing. Well, amazing that you did it. It’s funny when you think about, “Oh, let’s see if I can get a doctorate.” It’s a lot of work to get a doctoral degree as you obviously are well aware, and we’ll get to this in a minute, but it’s what led you to the book, which is something we’ll talk about in a minute, but I’m going to let Raza pick up on one of the most important things that we have talked about, the three of us together, about [00:08:00] boards.

Raza: And that thing, Keith, is what you call optimal diversity. Talk a little bit about that research and how all these, your prior experiences, your research, come together. What was the research and how did you figure out this concept of optimal diversity?

Kieth: In getting my doctorate, you all know how much research is involved in that whole process. I started researching the lack of gender diversity on corporate boards, and there was a lot of research out there and many different opinions regarding gender diversity and how it impacted boards and different things like that, and then I started researching the lack of ethnic diversity on corporate boards, and there wasn’t as much research around those areas. But I figured from a study standpoint that I would do more independent studies and research on my own in [00:09:00] that department when it came to ethnic diversity.

I ended up writing my dissertation. The name of my dissertation was Corporate Board Diversity: A Path to Board Service From the Wisdom of Black Women Directors, and so I really narrowed it down and really dove into the intersectionality of gender diversity and ethnic diversity by narrowing it down with black women directors and really peeling apart their barriers and enablers and their cultural diversity and cultural capital to navigating their executive career, their business career, their executive career and their path to actual board service.

That’s when I began to see the themes that were developed that created what I later call optimal diversity, which is the combination of observable diversity and/or demographic [00:10:00] diversity coupled with diversity of thought, and the two together really ends up becoming optimal diversity, which really applies to any human being because optimal diversity forces people to really reflect and to think about the things that make them them outside of just their observable demographic traits, but what were their lived experiences, the mental models and different things like that.

So, many people sometimes get confused whenever you mention DEI or diversity and different things like that, that it’s really about checking a box, finding a woman, finding a younger person, finding a fill-in-the-blank type of ethnic persuasion or racial preference or whatever, but it goes beyond that.

Many people think by just finding that [00:11:00] observable diversity in someone, that you’re also going to get diversity of thought. That may be true and oftentimes is true, but there are times where that might not be true.

In an article that I wrote several years ago for I believe it was Forbes at the time or it may have been Directors & Boards. As a matter of fact, I gave an example of a company and a board that’s located in the Northeast. There were five people serving on the board, and if you walked into that boardroom, you would see from an observable standpoint, what you would think is diversity, because the number of women serving on the board, the ethnicities, the ages on the board, and you would think that’s a board filled with diversity. But if you peeled the onion back a few more levels or layers, you may uncover that they all grew up all five in a very affluent [00:12:00] suburban neighborhood within the Northeast. They all went to Ivy League schools for their undergraduate and graduate degrees. They all worked for one of the big four consulting firms and because of that, even though from a demographic and observable diversity standpoint, it looks like you have diversity in a room, but when you peel that back, they may not be as diverse as one would think.

That’s where optimal diversity comes in because yes, you filled the room with the appropriate combination of people that may look like your stakeholders, but you peel back a little bit further when you really were going after diversity of thought, you may want to be that much more intentional about finding people, that in this example, that may have gone to private or public school and may have grown up in the South or the West and so on and so forth.

Raza: I love how you put it, the [00:13:00] observable diversity and combined with other forms of diversity, including thoughts, skills, lived experiences, and what the company or that particular board needs, and combining that in the right way for the job to come up with the optimal diversity to best serve that corporation.

Joe: Yeah, and I think your example is really compelling and really helps focus on why the term diversity can be in a way divisive. Because you are right, just checking the box is not going to give you what you need in the boardroom. What you need in the boardroom, as you and I and Raza have talked about, is a diversity of thought, a diversity of perspective. If all five people, no matter what they look like, no matter who they are, what they look like, all went to the same kind of schools and did the same things, then you’re missing it.

One thing that we’ve talked a lot [00:14:00] about is how critical that diversity is in terms of identifying risk and thinking about how to manage it, when to take it, when to not take it, because it’s probably one of two or three, maybe the single most important thing that a board does.

Kieth: Absolutely. And I feel it’s our fiduciary responsibility to be able to mitigate risk by surrounding ourselves with that optimal diversity to, like I said, mitigate risk, to maybe do a better job of disrupting ourselves while also recognizing the stakeholders that we have globally, if we’re a global company.

Joe: Right. So, one of the things that we’ve talked about about your book is the promise that if you read this book, you know how to get on a board, so let’s just cut through all that and talk about some of the basics. And one of the things that we talked about, I think, was that the overwhelming majority [00:15:00] of board seats go to people through some kind of networking, and I think what we said is you’ve got to get out there and you got to let people know, but you added something more to not about who you know and I just wanted you to follow up on that and talk about your advice to people who are networking how to optimize the networking from a board perspective.

Kieth: Absolutely. And it’s that word, Joe, networking. When people hear that word, they fill in their own blank as to what does that mean, and often people think networking is squeezing palms, kissing babies, handing out your business card, and really just going through the motions, telling people your 32nd elevator pitch about what you’re doing and what you’re seeking, and at the end of the night, you said I had another successful night in networking.

What I uncovered from my studies is that’s not [00:16:00] what networking truly is, and the majority of the executives and leaders that made it from their corporate role or government role to an actual board ended up getting on those boards, like you said, Joe, via their network. But how that actually came to fruition may not be the way most aspiring directors and directors seeking their next board actually realize. 

There’s this term pre-vetting in our industry and the professional search people like myself and non-gov committees, they go about pre-vetting individuals way before the individual, his or herself, actually was reached out to. This pre-vetting happens by someone bringing that person’s name up. And because we all sit around as board members, we [00:17:00] all sit around the board table and whenever it’s time to really consider another board member, we often ask everyone around the board table who do we know. In asking that question, we begin to think about people we’ve interacted with in some capacity over our career, and we think they may be a good fit for our board and then we share that information with the non-gov committee to actually begin the vetting process or with a professional search firm to begin the vetting process.

So, we all grew up with this saying, “It’s not what you know, it’s who you know,” and that has gotten us to where we are oftentimes in our careers so that we don’t submit a resume directly via applicant tracking process when we were seeking our next job, we found that it was better to share our resume with someone we know [00:18:00] and they will put the resume in front of the hiring manager. And that seemed to work when it came to getting another job in business.

But when it comes to corporate boards, it’s a little different because of the pre-vetting. What I uncovered in the study was, it’s not what you know. It’s not who you know, it’s who knows you. And I’ll give you a brief example that I often share and that example is, if you were sitting on a panel on main stage and the audience, there are a thousand people that’s going to listen to you on that panel, and if you scan the entire audience, there are 30 people in the audience that you believe you know, but after an hour of serving and sitting on that panel, there are now 970 more people who know you. [00:19:00] They form some form of an opinion about you, and they say, “I like the way Joe thinks. I like the way Raza answered that question,” and then they begin to think about you.

So, when one of those 970 individuals that you don’t know and probably will never know is sitting at a board table and is asked that question, who do you know? What I found out from my study, oftentimes people will say, “I was just at a conference and I heard this person speak and I liked the way they think, and non-gov committee or professional search firm, I want you to pre-vet this person. I think they could be a good fit for us.” So, it’s not what you know, it’s not who you know, it’s who knows you.

Joe: Yeah. It makes perfect sense, and one of the things I think that you advised was when you’re telling people [00:20:00] when you’re “networking,” make sure to take that extra minute and tell them exactly what you’re looking for so that they’re not guessing about it.

Kieth: And it is so much easier to be on autopilot. You know what, in our culture, whether you’re at a cocktail party or you’re sitting at a round table at a meeting, or you’re having lunch or dinner at a round table, we often talk to the person to the left of us and the person to the right of us and directly across, and in our culture, the first question they ask is, what do you do? And that’s when we go on autopilot.

It’s just so easy in 23 seconds to tell them exactly what we do. And when they do, they’re just talking about their day-to-day vocation, and we do so much more than that. And I challenge those who are aspiring to get their first board or their next [00:21:00] board to add seven to eleven more seconds to their autopilot speech and say, “And I serve on two nonprofit boards, and at this particular point, I am looking for a private company board in this industry because of this experience that I have, and I’m looking to pay it forward.” How difficult was that? And if we don’t let people know what we’re interested in, how would they know?

Joe: I couldn’t agree more. And that is a great lead into one of the reviews for your book, which I’ll just read. “Breaking into the boardroom isn’t about luck, it’s about strategy, preparation, and execution. The boardroom journey provides a clear step-by-step roadmap for women and executives seeking to secure and thrive in board roles. So, it’s the strategy.”

Talk a little bit about how you [00:22:00] developed the strategy. What did you find in your research that helped create this book?

Kieth: You know, it came down to execution, and I talk about five different capitals throughout the book. And in fact, I dedicated a chapter to each capital, and the capitals that we typically hear about whenever we are talking about corporate board service is around human capital and social capital.

Human capital being your expertise, your education, your experience that you have developed over the years and you bring it to the boardroom. And social capital are all those relationships that you have developed over time, those relationships that can help you get on a board and those relationships that the board would love to tap into because it may help them in their M&A, may help them in their talent management. It may help them in many different areas, all these relationships, finding financial [00:23:00] resources, so on and so forth.

What we don’t talk about are those other three capitals. I call it cultural capital. That’s more around your background and mental models, different things like that, that you’ve used either innately or in a way that you didn’t even know you were using it that helped you throughout your career and really looking at your lived experiences and your mental models that you created that truly helped you, and sometimes created barriers for you throughout your career, but they identify those. And then your director capital, really uncovering exactly what you need to actually get on that board seat. Where do you have gaps? Where are your strengths? And then lastly is the answer to your question, it’s the commitment capital, that is the missing ingredient.

I have done studies where you really look at two groups of executives, had [00:24:00] exceptional careers. Both groups went through a really good board readiness program to really learn about corporate governance, learn about board service, and they’ve gone through that. Many of them have even gotten their certification in corporate governance so that they can be a great asset to a board. But when you have these two groups that have incredible CVs and resumes have and had an incredible career and did their prep work from a board readiness standpoint to the point where they got certifications, but one group actually got on corporate boards and the other group didn’t.

What I uncovered was it came down to execution. It came down to truly executing what they learned, and that’s what I call commitment capital to understand, in a reverse [00:25:00] engineer sort of way, what your actual goal is, how to reverse engineer it and then begin to execute. It’s those that slapped their hands when they’re done with the program and said, “I learned a lot. I took copious notes and let those board positions start to come my direction.” It’s those that actually execute on what they learn are the ones that truly get on a corporate board moving forward.

Raza: Keith, in applying all these five type of capitals, what patterns have you seen that have been barriers, for example, for women to serve on boards?

Kieth: It comes down to not really understanding what you bring to the table. There’s this myth out there and the myth is because you were an exceptional executive, you are going to be an exceptional [00:26:00] board member. In causation/correlation, it may not actually work out to be that way. It could be true, but you might not even make it through the interviewing process if you don’t show up properly.

So, those who have, what I call, their autopilot hat on of being an unconsciously competent executive have a hard time making it through the interviewing process when they didn’t intentionally put on their consciously competent governance hat. And it’s those that show up differently in the interviewing process and instead of telling them how great of an executive you were, they actually show up by exhibiting the type of behavior the board would want to see at a board meeting, instead of being that person [00:27:00] that’s talking about all the great things you’ve done, they’re now the person that asks thought provoking questions throughout the board interview, and they demonstrate the behavior that the board will like. And ultimately, you want the people that you interview with to say, “I would want that person sitting to the right of me or to the left of me in our next board meeting.”

But I find too many executives go on autopilot, and I use the analogy of if you’re driving a car and they go on autopilot and they’re looking through the rear view mirror while they’re driving and they’re telling people all the great things they’ve done that’s behind them in the past, and when you’re interviewing for a board role, it’s best to look out the front windshield and be able to say what’s beyond that S-curve and that sharp right curve ahead by asking thought provoking questions [00:28:00] based on your human capital, and that’s looking out the front windshield and showing your human capital instead of looking through the rear view mirror and shouting your praises.

Joe: So, in some ways, when people say, “What’s the difference between having a resume and a board bio?” And I will say a resume tells someone everything you’ve done. A board bio should be one page telling people what your value will be to the board. So, it’s a different thought. You’re right, you’re not looking back. You’re looking about how will I be impactful on your board, and that takes a little different kind of perspective, a little different kind of thought and definitely, the goal is to show whoever it is that’s looking, you want me on your board.

Kieth: Absolutely, and it’s hard to do that. I think it was Mark Twain that said, “I would’ve written you a shorter letter if I had more time.” It’s hard to take 30 years [00:29:00] of experience, distill it down to one page. So, I average probably 25 board bios a week, and I get many of them that have the narrowest margins and it’s nothing but letters and words that fill in that one page. It looks almost like a page that’s now black. They fit so much information on that page, and I know that person is exceptional. I got it from the note that they wrote in their email when they sent it, and I have the best intentions on taking seven to ten minutes later on to read their board bio, but I have to set it aside until I have seven to ten minutes.

Unfortunately, here’s something that I’m not proud of, that pile of bios that look like that have grown from a quarter-inch thick to a [00:30:00] half-inch thick to an inch thick and so on. It’s the bios that have a lot of white space, a lot of bullets and it’s on one page that I can glance at, and I see a few things that immediately catch my attention, and I know it’s only going to take me two to three minutes to peruse it, those are the ones that I read immediately. And because I welcome that break in between calls and I read it immediately because I know it’s only going to take two minutes. It’s the other ones that they try to tell me their life story on one page that I know will take seven to ten minutes that I set aside.

Joe: Keith, you and everyone else. I mean, clearly the reason for the one-page board bio is precisely what you’re saying, no one really necessarily wants to know the history of your life, but they do want to know, “I have a board seat. Can you fill it?” And how would you add value to that board, [00:31:00] that takes thought. That takes effort. That takes time.

Kieth: That’s not easy and it takes an awful lot of reflection. Truly understand, one, what brings you joy? Two, the value that you will bring to the board via your secret sauce and via your superpowers, and that takes an awful lot of reflection to be able to distill 30 years down to that. When I’m successful, it’s because of these reasons. When I fell. It’s because of these reasons, and I enjoyed this and I dislike that. And when you can succinctly tell your story and connect the dots after that much reflection, that makes a big, big difference.

Joe: It’s extremely powerful.

Kieth: The goal is to just use the bio to get a 15-minute connection, not to tell your life story.

Raza: Keith, can I summarize the three top secrets to getting your board seat? Number one, who knows you? [00:32:00] Number two, let your network know, add seven to eleven seconds to your autopilot intro. Number three, know what value you will add to a particular board, and why would you be great at it.

Kieth: Absolutely, Raza. To be able to reframe what networking means, just don’t do what everyone else recommends. Do what works for you. If you are a great writer but not a great speaker, then write. Because now a thousand people know you, you may not know them. If you’re a great speaker and you have a story you want to tell, then speak. And if you don’t enjoy mixers, don’t go to mixers because you won’t show up well. So, figure out who you are and what your superpowers and secret sauce actually are and then incorporate [00:33:00] that in a way of getting your name out there so more people know you than you know, and that they not only know you, but they know what you would like, and then craft the way that you’re going to be able to demonstrate your board qualities by the way you show your human capital.

Joe: Keith. It’s been great speaking with you today. Thank you so much for joining us.

Kieth: Thank you. This has been outstanding. I appreciate it.

Joe: And thank you all for listening to On Boards with our guest, Dr. Keith Dorsey.

Raza: Please visit our website at OnBoardsPodcast.com. That’s OnBoardsPodcast.com. We’d love to hear your comments, suggestions, and feedback. If you’re not already a subscriber, please be sure to subscribe at Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast and remember to leave us a five-star review.

Joe: And please tune in for the next episode of On [00:34:00] Boards. Thanks.