In this episode of On Boards, hosts Joe Ayoub and Raza Shaikh speak with John Rose, an international marketing executive, entrepreneur, and board advisor who has led businesses across the U.S., Europe, Latin America, and the Middle East.
John discusses his global career—from founding the first ad agency in Russia to relocating his company to Dubai and his recent research project, “The Boardroom Blind Spot,” a global survey exploring why marketing expertise is underrepresented on boards.
He also shares insights from his work with the Virtual Advisory Board and Board Brothers, highlighting the impact that advisory boards are having on governance. John has served as a board member and advisor for several companies, including Atypical Digital, WLB, Cow Level and Harvard Alumni Entrepreneurs.
Key takeaways
1. A global career defined by reinvention
- John began his career in Boston media and advertising before co-founding the first Western ad agency in what was at the time the Soviet Union. As global markets shifted, he built a thriving international business across Eastern Europe.
- When the war broke out with Ukraine, he and his team quickly relocated from Russia to Dubai, rebuilding their agency from the ground up and now represents Dubai’s tourism in a number of countries.
2. Dubai’s culture of openness and innovation
- John described Dubai as “the city of the future,” efficient, safe, and globally connected, with a government and business culture that actively supports growth.
- Dubai offered a welcoming and dynamic environment for rebuilding. With 90% or more of residents coming from abroad, the city fosters a strong sense of belonging and entrepreneurial energy.
3. The Boardroom Blindspot
- John’s research survey, conducted with the Virtual Advisory Board*, revealed that fewer than 14% of boards surveyed include directors with marketing expertise. The survey included 416 board members and executives across 46 countries.
- Results showed that 60% of respondents believe that marketing perspective would add value, but only 11% have addressed the gap.
- John asserts that boards are still dominated by finance and legal expertise but largely excludes marketing expertise which brings a customer-centric lens essential for growth, purpose, and communication in a rapidly changing world.
4. Preparing marketers to serve effectively on boards
- John believes marketing professionals must take some of the responsibility for closing the gap by learning to “speak board”-connecting creative and customer insights to business outcomes, governance, and shareholder value.
- Strategic marketers, especially CMOs and Chief Growth Officers, can bridge this divide by pursuing board education and gaining experience through nonprofit and/or smaller boards.
Quotes
- “86% of companies don’t have any marketing expertise on their boards— that’s pretty significant.”
- “I think we (marketing) are the interpreters. I think we’re the people who help cross the gap between what the marketplace wants and desires and what the company can deliver.”
Links
Guest Bio
John Rose is an accomplished senior executive, entrepreneur, investor, board member, and creative director with over 30 years of experience leading marketing and media businesses across the U.S., Europe, Latin America, and the Middle East. He is a founding member of the Virtual Advisory Board,
co-founder of Board Brothers, and a frequent speaker on global governance and marketing leadership. John’s expertise spans brand strategy, international expansion, and board governance, with a special focus on helping companies bridge marketing insight with corporate purpose and growth. He currently resides in Dubai, where he continues to advise boards and global organizations on marketing strategy and board composition.
* The Virtual Advisory Board (VAB) is a virtual and global platform which connects its members and helps them navigate the global board of directors and advisory board ecosystems.
Transcript:
Joe: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to On Boards, a deep dive at what drives business success. I’m Joe Ayoub, and I’m here with my co-host, Raza Shaikh. Twice a month, On Boards is the place to learn about one of the most critically important aspects of any company or organization; its board of directors or advisors, with a focus on the important issues that are facing boards, company leadership, and stakeholders.
Raza: Joe and I speak with a wide range of guests and talk about what makes a board successful or unsuccessful, what it means to be an effective board member, and how to make your board one of the most valuable assets of your organization.
Joe: Before we introduce our guest today, we want to thank the law firm of Nutter McClennen & Fish, who are again sponsoring our On Board Summit this year taking place on October 20th in their beautiful conference center in the Boston Seaport. Nutter has been an incredible partner with us in every way. [00:01:00] We appreciate all they’ve done to support this podcast.
Our guest today is John Rose. John is an accomplished senior executive, entrepreneur, investor, board member, and creative director who has led marketing and media businesses in the US, Europe, Latin America, and the Middle East.
Raza: He is an international marketing specialist and award-winning writer and author who has built enduring relationships with hundreds of global brands and government organizations.
Joe: John has also served as an independent board member or board advisor on boards around the world, including Atypical Digital, WLB, Kyle Level, and the Harvard Alumni Entrepreneurs. Welcome John. Thanks so much for joining us today on On Boards.
John: Thanks for having me. That was a wonderful introduction. Thank you. Wish I was more interesting.[00:02:00]
Joe: I think it was just pretty good. Anyway, John, let’s start a little bit with your background because it is quite eclectic, and were talking before this, not exactly the same as many of our guests. So, just talk a little bit about the diversity of the countries where you have operated and been involved in marketing companies and with marketing clients.
John: Well, I started right there in Boston. I’m sitting here in Dubai now, but it’s a fairly convoluted path I’ve taken to get to here. I actually started in media in Boston. I started in radio and then I went to work in an advertising agency, started my own advertising agency. At some point along the way, we had an opportunity to get into Russia, or at that time it was the Soviet Union, it was still Gorbachev and glasnost and perestroika.
So, we basically opened up the first ad agency in the Soviet Union, which we grew into quite a good sized business. As the wall fell down and we expanded [00:03:00] throughout all the former Soviet bloc countries, we had a little foray into Cuba for a while and really all things were going great.
Unfortunately, when the war broke out with Ukraine, a lot of the world canceled Russia. We mostly represent multinational companies, a lot of American companies, and of course everybody pulled out. And me personally, as an American, I’m also sanctioned. So, we moved our headquarters to Dubai very abruptly, literally with two suitcases in hand, got on a plane and got out a dodge. Now, we’re here in Dubai.
Joe: The Russians could learn that. That would be a good term for them to learn probably. How long have you been in Dubai?
John: Closing on three years now.
Joe: Wow. And how has that been as a place to move your business and to connect with the world of marketing?
John: I’m really loving Dubai. I didn’t know that. When we came here, it was because just happenstance. After COVID, it was one of the [00:04:00] first places that opened up in my part of the world coming from Russia. This is before the war. And I have a Russian wife and you sort of have to be careful with visas and figure out where you’re going to go. We came to Dubai and in previous years I thought of Dubai as more of a place I stopped at on the way to somewhere else, on the way to Beirut, on the way to Maldives or to India. But it was on this trip that I sort of discovered that Dubai had evolved and it sort of had a soul all of a sudden, and I really thought it was interesting.
We had some clients that wanted us to move into Dubai before COVID. So, it just worked out that we ended up here, and I think that what I have come to say is that I don’t think that any place has felt more like home as fast as Dubai, and that’s probably because almost no one’s from here. Ninety percent plus of the people here are from somewhere else, we’re all expats, and so it creates this sort of welcoming environment. Everybody’s sort of been through it. No [00:05:00] one looks at you like an interloper. Remember, I spent all those years in Russia, over 30 years. I was never going to be Russian no matter how hard I tried serving on boards, I was never going to be Russian.
But here, you almost instantly feel like you’re here, you’re of this place, so I thought that was pretty fascinating. As far as business is concerned, we’ve spent many months first winding down our Moscow office. We still have presence throughout the CIS countries, but we had to wind that down. It’s not so easy to roll up a Russian company. That took a long time, many months, we had a lot of people. So, that was what occupied me at first.
But once we decided to really get serious in Dubai, we got pretty lucky. We won, in fact, Dubai as a client. We represented them in tourism in a number of countries. So, that sort of plugged us into the Dubai market really quickly because suddenly we were vetted by the government, everybody wanted to meet us, and it sort of rolled on from there. So, that was a lucky first break for us.
Joe: That’s great. [00:06:00] That’s great. It’s great to hear how welcome you feel there and I’m sure that’s part of the reason for the prosperity that it’s experiencing.
John: Yeah. It’s a kind of a remarkable place. I mean, it is the city of the future. You come here and you really feel it. It’s clean, it’s safe. Things more or less work. Very friendly. People are very welcoming, as I said, and the service sector is strong. You feel well taken care of here.
Joe: Yeah. We met because you were one of the parties responsible for a global survey entitled The Boardroom Blind Spot. Let’s talk a little bit about what that was about and what motivated you being a part of conducting that survey.
John: Well, it struck me a number of years ago that marketing was underrepresented on boards because I’m a marketing guy who has served on boards, and I’ve seen it. In my experience, I was the only marketing guy on [00:07:00] boards. I knew for a long time. So, I at some point wrote an article called Marketing on Boards that I wrote for an organization called Virtual Advisory Board that I’m a member of, and I’m sure we can get some into who they are and what they’re about.
But I found out that this contradiction was kind of clear, companies I felt, especially since COVID, are facing all these different issues that perhaps they hadn’t faced in quite the same way before that when you like talking about AI or ESG or digital transformation in general, or even a lot of these business models that have been upended since the pandemic that suddenly got everybody thinking in a different way. And I felt like boards prior were more in a defensive mode and now they need to be more in a growth mode. They need to consider other aspects of board governance that perhaps they may or may not be suited for. And I felt that marketing was needed.
When I say marketing, I think that half your [00:08:00] audience may think of marketing as very tactical, the tactical aspect of the business, and from that perspective, that belongs under the executive team. But I’m talking more about marketing people who have a broader perspective, who are very understanding of the customer or the consumer who understand some of these things that businesses need to evolve into, like ESG or diversity, et cetera, maybe in a way that’s more meaningful than perhaps the lawyers and the finance people on boards.
So, I saw boards being rather homogenous and I felt that there was an opportunity to inject this kind of thinking, but I wasn’t seeing it happening and I was very determined to try to figure out why. I saw a lot of anecdotal information, but I didn’t find anything that you could really hang your hat on statistically, so I had this idea that we should do this research.
Joe: And just to [00:09:00] put it into context, the importance beyond just the marketing world, which we’ll talk about, was the need to create boards that were composed in maybe more sophisticated way. That is that they really looked at the needs of the company as they exist, not as they may have traditionally been viewed, and build their boards accordingly. Is that right?
John: Absolutely. It’s not about marketing. I sort of look at this survey as a canary in a coal mine for any other aspect of the kind of skill sets that might be useful. I think boards should be devised based on the purpose they serve for the companies that they steward. And remember we’re talking about boards now more generally. I mean, there’s fiduciary boards, there’s advisory boards.
I think that they can all serve different purposes, but I think the point is that you have to bring expertise in and rather than fiduciary boards being in a defensive posture, I just feel like this should be more in a growth posture and they should be bringing in [00:10:00] whatever expertise is required in order to fulfill that mission?
Joe: So, your survey captured insights from 416 board members and executives across 46 countries. How did you identify the people who participated in the survey?
John: Well, they had to have been on a board rather recently, within the last three or four years and they had to be willing to fill out a survey. The idea was to try to get as many people into the survey as possible. As you probably know when you’re dealing with business people, but we managed through the Virtual Advisory Board membership and the partners of the Virtual Advisory Board, which included Harvard Alumni Entrepreneurs, and a variety of other enterprises that are focused around boards, Board Owl, a few others, there’s a whole list of about eight or 10 different partners and so we dug into their membership as well.
Listen, we would love it to be a bigger survey, and of course, as you start to break it down from country to country, you can see how it might be a little [00:11:00] lopsided, but globally, I think it holds up, and mostly I feel confident in it because the answers were so homogenous.
When you’re doing research, if it’s all across the board, then it’s a problem, then. Then you have to really dig in and get a very large sample. But when you start to hear the same kind of answers over and over again, you see patterns and so I think that makes the survey relatively reliable.
Joe: So, without getting into detail, US, Europe, Asia, Africa, or wherever, what was the rough breakdown?
John: I think it was majority, US, Europe, and Middle East probably mostly because I was pumping it up over here and we have a lot of Virtual Advisory Board members here that I could strong arm into sitting down for five or 10 minutes, but we have representation from all over the globe.
Joe: What was the finding in terms of the percentage of boards that were surveyed that had someone with marketing [00:12:00] expertise?
John: It was less than 14%, and that’s a blend of advisory boards and fiduciary boards. When we cut into that data, we find the fiduciary boards are probably about half that. It depends on the industry. I mean, obviously, in certain businesses you see more marketing people, like in fast moving consumer goods, and a few other sectors, you’ll find a lot more marketing people involved. But across the board it’s relatively low. Interestingly enough, nearly 60% of directors acknowledge that marketing experience on their board would be useful, but they also say that only 11% are actually trying to fix it.
Joe: Well, that actually is very telling, but let me get back to the question that I think you kind of began, which is why does under 14% necessarily mean they’re unrepresented? By that I mean when you look at all of the things a board might need, the typical things, C-suite experience, financial expertise, industry related experience, human [00:13:00] capital, strategic growth, all the things that a company might consider to recruit onto their board, why do you assume that companies that are not necessarily in marketing need a marketing expert?
John: Sure. Well, first of all, just to interpret that data, that means 86% of companies don’t have any marketing expertise on their boards.
Joe: Right.
John: That’s pretty significant. I think that the reason why I think it’s important is because I think that I look at marketing from a broader perspective. Like I said before, a lot of people think of it as a tactical aspect of the business, which as I agree, belongs in the executive team. But when you think of it as a mindset, someone who is customer centric, someone who is more experienced at managing purpose and diversity and other areas that I think are [00:14:00] the kinds of skills that maybe a lawyer or a finance person or even some senior executives have not been necessarily trained for, especially since they’re so new, so in other words, if you’ve got a former CEO on a board and he’s been out of the business for six to eight years, he had no experience operationally on dealing with any of these issues.
Never mind AI. I mean, that’s changing everything. I think you need the marketing people, because I think we’re the interpreters. I think we’re the people who help cross the gap between what the marketplace wants and desires and what the company can deliver.
Joe: So, one of the findings of the survey was that there’s what I would call a lack of inventory. I think the figure was that 81% of the people surveyed said that the marketing professionals with board experience are lacking. So, I guess part of my question is for marketers who want to be on boards, what are the skills or [00:15:00] expertise that they need, and what should they be doing to get the experience they need in order to be a strong board member?
John: Sure. Well, that is very telling and I agree. I mean, the onus isn’t just on the companies or on the boards, it’s on the marketing people. But I would say it’s the same onus that’s on everybody, most people aren’t suited for boards. I mean, they’re just not experienced at, or they’re not trained for it or what have you, and the same is true for marketing.
So, I would say that marketing executives have to go through the same journey that everyone has to go through in pursuing roles on boards. So, whether you start serving on smaller boards or not-for-profit boards, or you take an NED course or you do whatever you do, when you’re at the beginning of your board journey and more marketing people have to do that, maybe fewer marketing people are doing it in other areas, other role holders, but it’s the same process, it’s the same dilemma.
Most marketing people are not suited for boards. I think that’s mostly because they [00:16:00] have been involved in tactical execution and really what you need is people who have stepped up, who understand the business side, who’ve risen to the CMO level or the chief growth officer level who have a lot of experience in marketing, but also understand the business in a very intimate way.
Like most board members, you have to cross that gap. You can’t just be the skillset that you brought to the table. You also have to be very good in the room and you have to be very good at interpreting and understanding the challenges that the company is going through and then bringing your own skills to bear. But you have to do it in a way that makes sense for the board. You have to speak board, you have to be invested in that process.
Joe: I think identifying expertise at the CMO level is really helpful because it does kind of put into view the fact that it’s going to be a limited number of people. I mean, that’s a high level to achieve. There are lots of [00:17:00] CEOs, there are lots of CFOs, there aren’t as many CMOs at a level that are doing the kind of strategic thinking that you’ve identified. I just think that’s an important thing to kind of recognize. But let’s talk now about the Virtual Advisory Board because you said that many of the people that participated in the survey were part of that group, and I think you were one of the founders of the group as I remember.
John: I wasn’t a founder, but I was member number eight, and I did advise them on helping to put together their business model and so forth. They’re now a very sizable organization. This was a really interesting group that was founded during COVID. This was spring 2020 and so it was just a handful of guys that the founders brought together. One of them is very well involved in the Young Presidents’ organization, YPO and so a lot of YPO members jumped on board very quickly. And it was, what’s going on with boards? What’s happening here? And also the realization that we were all coming to during COVID, which [00:18:00] is you could be anywhere in the world and serve on a board. That wasn’t a reality really before that. I mean, it was and it wasn’t. I mean, it wasn’t as common certainly. I mean, now became very commonplace really fast. That sort of opened up these opportunities.
I served on a number of boards and been involved in boards maybe a decade earlier, and I sort of had stopped. I think what changed between then and now, or then and then, was that advisory boards came up. Advisory boards weren’t really a thing 15, 20 years ago. We certainly didn’t see them in Europe. And I saw that as being, “Oh, that’s interesting. I think I would like to do that because I mostly work with large enterprises that move very slowly. I like the idea of working with a $50 million company, a $100 million company where I’m working with an executive team on a board or as an advisor where I see the action, I see it happening. It feels like it’s more in real time rather than that sort of slow motion that we all are used to with large companies.”
So, anyway, Virtual Advisory Board sort of got me [00:19:00] thinking about that, and I got invested or vested in them. I didn’t invest in them. I got vested in their success and so I helped them. I lead sessions for them. One of the sessions I lead is elevator pitch for board roles, so I teach people. Because a lot of people in VAB are transitioning from executive roles into board roles and they don’t know how to talk about themselves. Tell me about yourself is a dreaded question and too many of us use the reflex of just giving the chronology of what we’ve done, basically reciting our CVs. It’s not how you get a board role and it’s certainly not how you’re going to get remembered very quickly.
Anyway, so I lead sessions like that, and VAB is very good at doing a lot more education, basically teaching everybody how to walk and talk like a board member. Not formal education. You’ve got plenty of NED certifications and things like that to get, but in a way that is meaningful and it’s also just a great network.
I serve on a board of another VAB member. I learn a lot. You have your finger on the pulse of what’s going on in boards, and of course [00:20:00] I now lead their marketing network inside of VAB and that’s the impetus to doing the survey.
Joe: And just roughly how many members do you have?
John: I believe it’s now like 1200. It maybe even higher, people are joining all the time. I try to do three or four one-on-ones with VAB members every week.
Joe: Wow, that’s great.
Raza: John, speaking of the pulse on what’s going on with boards, you’ve had experiences all over the world in running businesses and being part of boards and being advising organization. How would you describe the differences in boards’ governance and practices in different parts of the world based on what you’ve experienced and what you’ve seen?
John: I’m always impressed with the Northern Europeans. They seem to be really on top of their game, very strong on governance, on shareholder rights. Some of those countries have dual structures [00:21:00] for boards so that they institutionalize that process of defending investors and employees for that matter.
I’m on a board in Switzerland. I find the Swiss and the Germans to be pretty efficient in that regard. I think in the UK you’ve got a long tradition of trusteeship and things like that so there’s a lot of interesting dimensions to board work in the UK, so that makes it a little bit different.
In my part of the world here, we’re talking about family offices, which really have not embraced board work, but they are forced to now, I think. There’s a lot of succession problems. They’re getting so large that they have to come to terms with creating an institutionalized process.
Very recently, this was a couple of years ago, but Majid Al Futtaim Group, you wouldn’t know them too well over there, but you might have heard of them all over the Emirates, or you might have heard Carrefour Supermarket chain or things like that, they own that. It’s a $9 billion company and suddenly the [00:22:00] founder dies and 10 of the heirs are squabbling for position. So, the Sheikh Mohammed, the ruler of Dubai, had to step in and oversee the estate, and then they had to assign five government representatives and four family members and recraft it as a public joint stock company. I think that’s sort of signaled to many of the companies here that they better pay more attention to their process, because succession planning is a very difficult process that they have to deal with.
Raza: Yeah, it just speaks to this larger picture of the role of the board and the job of the board or boards in sustaining an organization and looking for the long term. And I also see that in different parts of the world, there is an evolution in the maturity of governance and practices, and I think some parts have evolved further and have had longer traditions than others. But it does look like that [00:23:00] globally we are upping our governance game, hopefully.
John: Yeah, I think so, absolutely, and I think the US has done quite well.
Raza: Yeah, what did you think they have if you compare it to the US?
John: Well, I think the US is sort of in some ways on the vanguard. I’m not sure that they’re ahead of some of the Northern Europeans, but I think do think that the US is well ahead of the game. I think that there were things that happened in the US many years ago that sort of forced that hand and it’s kind of why we end up with more finance and legal people on boards and why it became defensive after Sarbanes–Oxley. So, I think that a line has been drawn with sand, I think, post-COVID where boards are now coming to the reality that they have to shift their thinking from. As I said, that defensive posture is something a little bit more growth oriented, and I think the US is ahead of the game there.
Raza: And I think as in the US and actually kind of globally, one thing Joe and I also talk with many guests on the podcast that the waterfront that boards have to deal with keeps increasing [00:24:00] the number of things that from as you mentioned, ESG to digital transformation to perspective of diversity and diversity of perspective and so on, what are some of the things that you think the Americans can learn from the rest of the world or parts of the world that are more advanced in terms of figuring out better governance?
John: Well, I think really it all comes down to viewpoint. I think you got to have the expertise and varying points of view. I think that one of the ways I see it happening a little bit is that there’s sort of a joint structure of you have the fiduciary board, but you also have an advisory board, and the advisory board’s not only serving the executive team, but also informing the fiduciary board so that you then have this shared experience, because I think it behooves board members to have sort of a continuing ed process. I don’t think you can just get on a board anymore and just wait out your days. I think you have to keep up.
Look at AI, what it’s doing to business models, [00:25:00] I think most board members are frightened by what they don’t know. I think that any way you can bring in the expertise and if you can formalize it either through an advisory board process or with my colleague in Board Brothers, we have these little advisory pods that we install at fiduciary boards. When they need special expertise or if they’re going through any kind of a transition or suddenly a merger or major acquisition of some sort, they can bring in people from an advisory board to help them through and steward the processes.
Raza: John, actually, do talk a little bit more about Board Brothers. What is it?
John: Well, Board Brothers was really just myself and another Virtual Advisory Board member, Enrico Baldassarri. He’s my board brother from another mother. He and I would find ourselves talking about boards and then we started sort of writing down what we’re saying and transcribing it, and we started putting it out as content and it got sort of a good reception and [00:26:00] we’re a little bit irreverent about it. We think that talking about boards can be kind of dry for most people so we try to liven up the. By and large, it’s a process that is a little stuck in the past so we thought it would be interesting to sort of up the game a bit, and so that’s what we do.
Also, by the way, both of us at different times discovered that when we’re invited onto advisory boards, oftentimes we’re the first advisor and they need help creating those advisory boards. So, that’s kind of what we’re doing, we are helping to create advisory boards, optimize boards, and populate boards because we have this huge network. Both of us have networks of people that are board qualified through the Virtual Advisory Board and a variety of other organizations. We probably have 20,000 members across 10 different organizations that could serve on boards. So, we have a resource and so that’s what we’re doing with Board Brothers, but mostly we’re having a little bit of fun putting out some fun content.
Joe: So, Raza and I talk very often about the fact that being on a board, whether it’s an [00:27:00] advisory board or a fiduciary board, is a job, and there’s no job worth having that you don’t constantly have to learn in order to improve your performance. Being a board member, as you pointed out, is no different, nor should it be any different, so anyone that thinks that just dropping on a board and just sitting there for whatever number of terms they’re going to serve is sufficient. Think about the job. Think about being in the C-Suite. Think about running a company. If you don’t learn and you’re not constantly evolving, you’re not going to do a good job and neither will a board member, and I think that’s part of what you’re saying.
John: Absolutely, you got to make a contribution. I think the days of just being a good name for a board are gone. I think that a lot of it was sort of just what famous person can I get on my board or what well-known person can I get on my board? I think that those kinds of roles are going by the wayside, those ceremonial roles are.
Raza: Yeah, it’s not an honorific position. John, but I do want to double click on the point that you made about [00:28:00] advisory boards. We’ve had conversations about scientific advisory boards for organizations that are science based or technology based, and we’ve had conversations around customer representation boards in different names like customer advisory board or industry advisory boards and so on. I think you made a real good point that those type of non-fiduciary boards are also extremely helpful and feed to the fiduciary boards and the organization’s ability to move forward and sustain itself. I think that’s a really important thing that’s worth highlighting.
Joe: Well, in the family world, when a family forms their first board, it’s not uncommon for them to start with an advisory board to kind of let’s see how governance works in the family before we make it into a fiduciary board. So, it’s yet another place where advisory board serves what I think [00:29:00] is a really important purpose because having a good advisory board can be very impactful for a company and will give the people who might not understand completely how it’s going to impact their family a sense of what it might look like to have a fiduciary board. So, yeah, good point, Raza.
John: Yeah, I think most importantly, it has to be structured. It can’t just be a loose, informal organization. There has to be some purpose to it. They have to have to be a few rules, at least some guide rails.
Joe: Oh, for sure. John, your focus and enthusiasm on good governance is terrific and it’s been a fascinating conversation today. Thanks so much for joining us.
John: Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. Great to see you guys.
Joe: And thank you all for listening to On Boards with our guest, John Rose.
Raza: Please visit our website at OnBoardsPodcast.com. That’s OnBoardsPodcast.com. We’d love to hear your comments, suggestions, and feedback. If you’re not already a subscriber, please be sure to subscribe [00:30:00] at Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast and remember to leave us a five star review.
Joe: Please tune in for the next episode of On Boards. Thanks.