Jennifer Buras advises clients, primarily senior executives, on career development, including in many instances their first board seat. In this episode she discusses how to prepare your first board seat – and succeed
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Preparing a client for a first Board Seat
“What is your personal brand? What is your board brand? How can you articulate that and infuse that in your board bio, your board resume, the way you present your value proposition.
We conduct mock interviews. We coach our clients who are actively pursuing board seats and are in live interview situations. We’ll record those interviews. A board interview is very different than a corporate interview, so we want to make sure that they’re prepared for that sort of questioning.
By presenting a board bio you’re demonstrating your board savvy. A board bio is intended to be a one-page narrative where the reader can quickly ascertain what is your board brand and what is your value proposition. What is it that’s unique about you and your experience that’s going to be accretive to the boardroom.
The role of a board member
People need to be reminded that it’s not about “telling” in the boardroom, it’s really about listening and being able to ask the right questions in order to further a conversation and get to a better decision.
I think it’s important for prospective board members or those seeking board seats to start with their own network. Who do you know within your network who is a board director? Who do you know who’s an influencer; accountants, lawyers, venture capitalists and really catalog that list and tier them. You’re trying to get into that second and third degree of separation from yourself in order to find opportunities.
We had a client at Essex years ago, who came from a very large, well known money management firm in Boston and he was offended that nobody had asked him yet to join a board and nobody asked.
When I asked: “Have you told anyone you want to join a board?” he said, “no.” You have to let people, your network and beyond, to know you’re interested. Pretty basic, but sometimes overlooked.
First For Profit Board Seat
I joined that board as a result of my work on the North Shore Y Board. At that time I was the treasurer of the organization. I chaired the finance committee and the CEO of Beverly Bank, the predecessor bank, was an ad hoc member of that board so he was able to see me in action in a different context than he might have seen me had he just known me in my day job. Having worked with him, when a board seat opened up on his board, he asked me if I’d like to be considered
When you sit on a not for profit board you have an opportunity for people to see you in action in a different way than they may see you in your day job, they see you in the boardroom, and also you’re often with board influencers, people who are either on corporate boards themselves, CEOs, people in the community who are willing to advance and endorse you.
Time Commitment as a board member
The NACD published a survey in the last year or so which indicated that the average director spends 248 hours a year, which translates into five hours a week on their board role, and as you know it’s not necessarily an evenly spread five hours a week.
The Boston Club is a woman’s leadership organization based in Boston dedicated to advancing women not only in the boardroom, but into leadership roles.
Joe: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to On Boards, a deep dive at what drives business success. I’m Joe Ayoub, and I’m here with my co-host, Raza Shaikh. On Boards is about boards of advisors and directors and all aspects of governance. Twice a month, this is the place to hear about one of the most critically important aspects of any company or organization: its board of directors or advisors, as well as the important issues that are facing boards, company leadership and stakeholders.
Raza: Joe and I speak with a wide range of guests and talk about what makes a board successful or unsuccessful, what it means to be an effective board member, the challenges boards are facing and how they’re addressing those challenges, and, how to make your board one of the most valuable assets of your organization.
Joe: Our guest today is Jennifer Buras. Jennifer is an executive coach and career [00:01:00] consultant with Essex Partners, where she works with clients in all aspects of strategy to help them achieve both professional and personal goals, including board seats on for-profit and non-profit boards. Previously, she was a search professional with Egon Zehnder, a top five global executive search firm, which she was a founding member of the Boston office.
Raza: Jennifer serves as an independent board director at North Shore Bank and is also a member of the National Association of Corporate Directors (NACD). She has held leadership positions on several not for profit boards, including serving as the chair of the board of directors for the YMCA of North Shore.
Joe: Jennifer is also a member of the Boston Club, where she serves on the corporate board committee. Welcome, Jennifer. Thank you so much for joining us today on On Boards.
Jennifer: Thank you, Joe and Raza. It’s a pleasure to be here this afternoon.
Joe: [00:02:00] Jennifer, let’s start with a little background. Talk a little bit about your work at Egon Zehnder and then how you ended up working with Essex, doing the work you’re currently doing.
Jennifer: I began my role at Egon Zehnder about 20 or so years ago, I was recruited by George Davis, who I know you all know as a guest on your program. George along with a couple of other partners was founding the Boston office, and George reached out to me to help him recruit in the financial services space, so I headed up that practice group in the Boston office. As part of that work, understandably working with senior executives, we were doing board search and that’s how I became involved in that aspect of the business.
Joe: When did you join Essex Partners and talk a little bit about what your role is there.
Jennifer: I joined Essex Partners in 2016. At this point in my career, I was really interested in pursuing coaching, having worked with senior executives and seen [00:03:00] a couple of different industries along the way; executive recruiting, banking, and as a CPA, I felt that that constellation of experience could be valuable to executives.
The role at Essex Partners is advising senior executives in some form of transition. That could be from one corporate role to another. It could be leaving an organization and “retiring,” which is kind of a dirty word in today’s culture
Joe: Yeah, it sure is
Jennifer: People like to move on and start the next chapter of life, and as part of either of those circumstances, many of our clients are interested in pursuing board seats. As part of that, we developed a program, we branded it “board essentials” to help our clients understand how to position themselves for board roles and also educate them with regards to corporate governance.
Joe: Do you lead the Board Essentials group at Essex?
Jennifer: I do, Joe.
Joe: Talk about how many of the clients at Essex are interested in board roles among other things. Is it a large percentage of the folks that you [00:04:00] work with?
Jennifer: I would say potentially 20% at this moment are interested in board roles, but the other 80%, because of their level in organizations, most of our clients are C-Suite executives, may not have the time and capacity right now, but are thinking about it for the future. Even if they’re not expecting to pursue that goal in the immediate term, we try to educate them at this stage in their careers such that in their next corporate role they are gaining experience that is going to be helpful in positioning for future board roles.
Joe: What are some of the things that you do to help prepare people for a future board role, education-wise or otherwise?
Jennifer: Sure. Well, we do a couple of what we call symposium sessions, landing a board seat and achieving excellence in the boardroom. These are really to level set in terms of understanding, positioning for board seats as well as corporate governance fundamentals.
It’s actually a feeder into the [00:05:00] ACCD certification program. If you go through the Essex program, you’re kind of waived out of their intro level component of their certification. But beyond that, Joe, the difference is really in the personalized approach we take to helping prepare folks to position themselves for board seats.
We step way back, we talk about, “Okay, what is your personal brand? What is your board brand? How can you articulate that and infuse that in your board bio, your board resume, the way you present your value proposition. When you’re at a cocktail party or at an interview, you want to make sure that you are presenting and positioning and then selling yourself most appropriately.
Then we do mock interviews. We coach our clients who are actively pursuing board seats and are in live interview situations. We’ll record those interviews. A board interview is very different than a corporate interview, so we want to make sure that they’re prepared for that sort of questioning.
We talk to them about outreach with regards to the recruiting community, but most importantly, through their [00:06:00] network and how to expand their network and put themselves in positions to be in circles of people that may help advance their goal of obtaining a board seat, and then just general coaching along the way. What did we learn? How are we going to iterate? What has happened so far, inform us about how we’re targeting this opportunity, so it’s a pretty comprehensive program.
Joe: A few things. First of all, I’m glad you brought up the board bio. I see a lot of folks when they’re looking for board seats, they just send the basic resume, and I think it’s become pretty clear that a board bio is different than your resume. It should look different, and if it does look different, it kind of signals to whoever’s recruiting that you understand that it’s different. Explain a little bit about how you help folks make a board bio, which is different from the resume or the CV.
Jennifer: That’s a great setup, Joe, and that’s exactly right. By presenting a strong board bio, you’re differentiating yourself in [00:07:00] terms of demonstrating your board savvy, if you will. A board bio is intended to be a one-page narrative where the reader can quickly ascertain what is your board brand and what is your value proposition. What is it that’s unique about you and your experience that’s going to be accretive to the boardroom. You don’t want to be all things to all people. You need to come up with, you know, am I a financial expert? Am I a CEO? Do I have operations experience? Do I have M&A experience? Do I have governance experience?
Really hone in on what it is that’s going to be most valued in the boardroom, not talking about your corporate accomplishments necessarily. You really need a different lens.
Joe: That’s great. Now let’s talk about interviews, because you mentioned something about board interviews, which are different than other interviews. Talk a little bit about board interviews and how they are different from a job interview, for example and how you prepare people for the difference.
Jennifer: [00:08:00] Right. Board interviews are different than corporate interviews. Again, the emphasis and lens is going to be how is your experience accretive to the boardroom conversation. For example, if you are a financial expert, you want to make sure that you’re leading with that competency. You also want to be able to demonstrate how else you’re going to be able to contribute to the boardroom conversation, what other experiences have you had, what is your leadership capabilities in order to be capable of asking the right questions.
People need to be reminded that it’s not about telling in the boardroom. It’s really about listening and being able to ask the right questions in order to further a conversation and get to a better decision. You don’t have to be the expert. Really, again, just some of the nuances of how you want to present yourself, such that you’ll be viewed as appropriate and a fit for the boardroom.
Joe: I love your comment that it’s about listening and asking the right questions because I think it’s easy to [00:09:00] overlook that, and I think sometimes new board members feel they have to get in there and show that they are experts and that actually isn’t the job. Do you find that more difficult with say, CEOs or former CEOs?
Jennifer: Is that a trick question?
Joe: Yeah, it actually is.
Jennifer: Well, just by the nature of board composition, you have a lot of very high-powered, alpha-type individuals in a room together so going into the boardroom and understanding that, I think, is critical.
Joe: The last thing I wanted to ask you about in terms of preparation is outreach. You talked about how people can get themselves on a board and one of the questions that we get all the time is, well, how do we do that? It’d be helpful to talk about that a little bit, if you would.
Jennifer: Well, I think it’s important for prospective board members or those seeking board seats to really, first of all, start with your own network, who do you know within your network who is a board director? Who do you know who’s [00:10:00] an influencer; accountants, lawyers, venture capitalists and really catalog that list and tier them.
I always suggest to clients, start out with the low-lying fruit and those who are going to be most receptive and really practice your pitch, if you will, and, you know, as you have those conversations, try to keep expanding your circle. You’re really trying to get into that second and third degree of separation from yourself in order to find opportunity, so there’s that path, your own network and expanding it.
Also, putting yourself in situations where you are with other board directors where you’re able to socialize and connect casually. You don’t wanna be wearing a placard saying, I’m looking for a board seat, but you want to put yourself in situations where you might have an opportunity to describe your experience and position yourself.
Then there are the executive search firms. You certainly, to the extent, have already worked with someone at a search firm, be sure to let them know that you’re interested in board work. Ask for an [00:11:00] introduction to somebody in their practice group who focuses on board search. You really want to make sure that all of these channels, if you will, of opportunity are open.
Joe: That’s great. That’s very helpful, and I think it’s interesting because in a way it seems obvious you should let everyone know, but when people first start, they often think there must be some other way to do it. It really is a matter of just kind of working at it and let your network expand to the point where someone will hear about it, I think in many cases.
Jennifer: That is spot on. Joe. We had a client at Essex years ago. I won’t say who, I won’t say where he came out of, but a very large, well known money management firm in Boston and he was offenced that nobody had asked him yet to join a board and nobody asked, “Have you told anyone you want to join a board?” And he said, no.
You just can to assume that people are going to connect the dots and, [00:12:00] of course, again, in LinkedIn, you don’t want that circle around you saying, “I’m open for hire or I’m open for work.” But you do want to appropriately let people know that you’re interested in board work and what you’re doing to advance yourself.
Joe: I know that some boards, and in fact increasingly boards are doing assessments on board members before they actually onboard them, what kind of assessments do you do for clients to maybe gauge a little bit about what their capabilities might be or where they might be a good fit?
Jennifer: At Essex Partners, regardless of whether clients are seeking board roles or not, we do a full battery of assessments. Some of them are relevant for board work as well; personality, leadership. At Essex, we’re really looking more because our executives are in transition around motivation, fulfillment, what’s going to be most rewarding in the next phase of life.
But I do think these assessments have value and they’re really growing in acceptance and prominence because fit is so [00:13:00] important in the boardroom and fit is difficult to ascertain in an interview. Certainly you get your help by reference checking and whatnot, but to have a profile as you go in as to personality style, leadership style, I think can be very helpful.
Interestingly, you bring this up, Joe, I’m working with a client right now who is interviewing tomorrow for a board seat at a large international industry board, the Hogan, they did a leadership assessment and they gave her the summary, but they’re going to do a full debrief with her regardless of whether or not she is selected for the board, so I think you’re just going to see more and more of this, and I think it’s very valuable.
Joe: Yeah, I agree. One of the things that Raza and I have talked a lot about is the DCRO, the Directors and Chief Risk Officers group that was founded by David Koenig. He has been offering this risk personality assessment as a way of boards understanding the [00:14:00] diversity of perspective of risk and risk governance at the board level. Have you heard much about that?
We talk about the importance of diversity of perspective on boards. This is one of those things, a diversity of risk perspective. What are your thoughts about that.
Jennifer: I think that makes so much sense, Joe. You don’t want everyone on the board with the same risk profile. If everyone on the board is risk adverse, you’re going to miss out on opportunity. If everyone is too high and willing to take too much risk, then you’re going to get yourself in trouble on the other end of spectrum. To be able to understand collectively where the board sits, I think is hugely valuable.
Raza: Jennifer you’re on the board of North Shore Bank. Can you talk a little bit about the bank itself and how you got to be onto the board position? There’s a little story behind that.
Jennifer: Sure. The North Shore Bank is a $1.5 billion community bank on [00:15:00] the North Shore, headquartered in Peabody, Massachusetts here on the North Shore of Boston. It’s a retail bank that also does a good amount of commercial real estate development. I got onto that board through a merger. I had been sitting on the Beverly Bank Board, which merged into the North Shore Bank Board in 2017, so that’s how the seat came about.
In terms of how I got on the bank board, that, that’s a story that I like to tell in my work at Essex Partners because I think it has a lot of relevance for people who are seeking first time board roles. I joined that board as a result of my work on the North Shore Y Board. At that time I was the treasurer of the organization. I chaired the finance committee and the CEO of Beverly Bank, the predecessor bank was an ad hoc member of that board so he was able to see me in action in a different context than he might have seen me had he just known me in my day job.
Having worked with him, when a board seat opened up on [00:16:00] his board, he asked me if I’d like to be considered and go through the interview process, so I welcomed that opportunity. But again, it leads me to my point about not for profit boards that I often make with, I didn’t join the YMCA of the North Shore Board because I was looking for a corporate board seat. This happened very serendipitously, but when you sit on a not for profit board, again, you have an opportunity for people to see you in action in a different way than they may see you in your day job, they see you in the boardroom, and also you’re often with board influencers, people who are either on corporate boards themselves, CEOs, people in the community who are willing to advance and endorse you.
I don’t want to overstate not for profit experience as it relates to getting on a corporate board, but it can be quite valuable not only from a networking perspective, but if it’s a board that has a strong governance structure and a committee structure that functions like a corporate board, and when I say that, I mean, with an audit [00:17:00] committee, with a comp committee, with a non-gov committee, because those would allow you to have something to talk about in interview as it relates to that experience.
Raza: Jennifer, could you talk a little bit about the committees that you serve on or chair at the North Shore Bank Board?
Jennifer: Sure. Raza, I chair the compensation committee and I also sit on the audit committee and the security committee. The security committee is a committee unique to a bank board in that it’s the committee that oversees the lending policy, if you will, and limits of the bank.
Raza: Is that separate or different from a risk committee that many bank boards also have?
Jennifer: It is. As a matter of fact, the risk committee is a standalone committee and often works in concert with the audit committee. This committee really sets policy around lending limits, around industry segment limits, certain parameters in lending.
Joe: I’m curious, in terms of being a member of the security committee, [00:18:00] is it important that the people that serve on that committee have bank industry experience? And if not, what is it that would be helpful in really making those decisions and setting those limits?
Jennifer: That’s a great question, Joe. It’s certainly helpful that I had a banking background, but that is not why I was selected to join that committee or that board. Again, bank management doesn’t want its board members putting their fingers way down into reading credit reports or loan writeups, if you will, and becoming the credit officer of the bank. That’s what management’s role is. Our role is to set policy, look at exceptions to policy and improve/approve those exceptions, but not to be in the weeds. There’s that phrase that is often used, nose is in, fingers out, and that’s exactly the case with the security committee.
Raza: To round it up, what I understood from the security committee, the goal is to secure the bank, make sure stuff doesn’t blow up. Is that really what the security [00:19:00] committee is about?
Jennifer: Yeah. That’s a good way to put it, Raza. Hopefully things won’t be blowing up, hopefully, as we enter this next phase of the economic cycle but that’s right. It’s a different name, and it certainly conjures up different thoughts as to what it really means, but it’s really overseeing the lending that the bank is doing.
Raza: On a board is a good amount of commitment and work, both the board and the committees. How should people view taking up a board position though? Is there f un and prestige of sitting on a board or you really have to actually be committing to it?
Jennifer: I think people should go into this commitment with their eyes wide open. The NACD published a survey in the last year or so which indicated that the average director spends 248 hours a year, which translates into five hours a week on their board role, and as you know, that can be lumpy. It’s not necessarily an evenly spread five hours a week. It depends on what is going [00:20:00] on and what committees you sit on.
Obviously, there’s the board meetings and the committee meetings, but there’s reviewing reports. If you sit on a board that’s not local, you’re going to be traveling to and from assuming the meetings are in person.
There’s the informal conversations that go on as consensus is trying to build if there’s a big decision that’s being made. There’s education. Directors are expected to participate in professional education and as a bank board director, we do monthly webinar training in addition to kind of the onboarding training.
It’s a significant time commitment and I would say to sitting executives, make sure that your CEO, your board, whoever needs to support your decision is aware of what you’re committing to.
Raza: I would go even as far as saying, “Look, when there is a crisis, it is all hands on deck and you better be available or have the capacity to be available for those type of meetings.” Only then they know who’s swimming [00:21:00] without their trunks when the tide goes down and people know the strength of their boards in harder times. I think you said it well, that taking up a board is not taken lightly and you have to be ready for that.
Jennifer: That’s a great point, Raza, and I think that proved out during our COVID years here too. I mean, particularly in the beginning when nobody knew what was going on, boards were calling meetings regularly to try to sort through what the strategy should be and how to adapt, so absolutely, all hands on deck.
Joe: I want to chime in on that, too. I think you’re absolutely right, Jennifer. During the pandemic, a lot of companies that either had not refreshed their board in a long time, or maybe who didn’t have boards, private companies, realized the importance of having the right board composition because there’s no point in having a board unless you’re thinking about it, and it’s composed in a way that’s current, that meets the current and future strategic [00:22:00] plan or business plan or whatever the organization has.
I think that did become very apparent to a number of companies during the pandemic. Times like that do kind of underscore the importance of having a group of outside experts who know you inside and out, know the organization and who have a fiduciary duty to helping you succeed. I think it’s an extremely valuable kind of reminder how important boards can be when it really matters.
Raza: Well said, Joe.
Jennifer: You bring up a great point, Joe, too, which is you don’t want to be getting to know your fellow board members in a crisis.
Jennifer: You want to make sure that you know each other, you trust each other, and that you can put the ore in the water together before you know what hits the fan.
Raza: Speaking of that then Jennifer, talk about the size and composition of the current board at North Shore Bank.
Jennifer: Sure. Well, North Shore Bank, as I mentioned, merged in 2017, so as a result, we brought two boards together. Obviously, not everyone [00:23:00] made it to the final consolidated board, but our board, in my opinion, is relatively large. There are 12 independent directors and two executive directors.
Joe: How does it work with that many people in the room? Is it effective?
Jennifer: Like most boards that I believe are effective, if you have strong committees and a strong committee structure, then your board meeting will not turn into one big committee meeting , and so the committees are very strong. They do the work. The work is done in the committees, and the committees report out of the board meeting.
Raza: Are there any term limits or retirement age that this board follows?
Jennifer: There are no term limits, Raza, but there is a mandatory retirement age, which is 72. As you know, retirement ages for board members is rising, which is interesting. I think I just saw a statistics somewhere. The Spencer Stewart 2021 Board Index of S&P 500 companies, in 2010, having a [00:24:00] board with a mandatory retirement age of 79% of all S&P 500 boards, that was their requirement. In 2021, it’s 97%. And on top of that, this is interesting as well, a mandatory retirement age of 75 in 2010 was 19%, and in 2021 is 51%, so mandatory retirement ages are rising, which on the one hand, reflects that people are working longer, living longer, engaged longer. But on the other hand, it doesn’t help in terms of refreshment, to have longer tenured board members hanging on so it’s interesting.
Joe: One of our guests talked about retirement age on boards as “rough justice.” It’s often implemented so that the difficult conversation of off boarding someone doesn’t necessarily have to take place. What are your thoughts about the best way for a board maybe to handle refreshment and board [00:25:00]composition other than retirement age?
Jennifer: Well, I do think there’s a lot of thought and emphasis right now being put on board evaluations. I think that has evolved where previously you’d see the board evaluated on a whole. I think now more and more boards are looking to evaluate individuals, and again, not through the lens of trying to throw people off, but just really to make sure that you’re getting the most out of your board.
If some somebody isn’t performing, let’s have a conversation and figure out why, because these seats are too valuable to have somebody who’s not pulling their weight. Many boards are adding seats as a kind of a way around that as the demand for certain competencies and the need to do it quickly is rising, a digital transformation, for example, cyber security.
I mean, if boards don’t have these competencies and no one’s moving along, they may add a seat. Boards are working around it. I just think it can be hard to off board somebody. Not-for-profit boards [00:26:00] do have term limits and they do have ways of moving people along gracefully, but it’s certainly more challenging for corporate boards.
Raza: Well said. I think really it is about the board being a fit for today and for the future. Term limits, retirement age, all of those things are really to hopefully bring that conversation. But I think a recurring or a reevaluation of the board against skills matrix or effective performance is probably the right balance. You don’t want to off board somebody who’s a really good board member just because of the age, for example, either, right?
Jennifer: Correct. That’s right.
Raza: Jennifer, one quick thought on your board work at North Shore Bank. How does that help you with your work at Essex Partners?
Jennifer: It helps me a great deal, Raza, because I believe it gives me credibility with my clients. I have been in the boardroom. I have gone through the interview process. Again, it’s a [00:27:00]community bank. I don’t mean to overstate it, but I feel as though I do have a perspective that I wouldn’t have if I was just trying to coach folks from the stands, if you will.
Raza: Yeah, and when you advise your clients, do you give them resources such as the Boston Club, for example, and maybe talk about the Boston Club, what it is and what you do there.
Jennifer: Sure. The Boston Club is a woman’s leadership organization dedicated to advancing women not only in the boardroom, but into leadership roles. It’s a large Boston-based organization, has hundreds of members, really through all stages, if you will, or at least at some base level of leadership through the life cycle of women executives.
I sit on the corporate board committee, which is a committee of the Boston Club specifically dedicated to advancing women on boards, and do this through outreach. We do this by educating Boston Club [00:28:00] members with regards to how to go about obtaining a board seat, and also you know, more specifically around current boardroom topics.
For example, we just did educational session on climate and ESG. We did one earlier this year on cybersecurity, so making sure that our members are educated and can speak credibly about what’s being talked about in the boardroom.
The Boston Club also does board search, so on a pro bono basis they will assist not in the same way that an executive search firm would do it, but at least providing names, board bio, so that a non-gov committee could at least look through some of the Boston Club members in our own database.
Raza: Sounds like a superb organization and a lot of great resources.
Joe: I wanted to ask you about the YMCA board, which I know you were very involved with, and still are. Just let us know a little bit about and how you first got involved with the Y.
Jennifer: The YMCA of the North Shore is a seven-branch association [00:29:00] board with a very large footprint on the North Shore into Southern New Hampshire. That also includes eight affordable housing projects with one under development. In total, the total assets of the organization are about $182 million and over $55 million in operating revenue, so very large, complex board, not atypical of many not for profit boards. It’s large, it’s a 30-member board, and each of the branches have their own non-fiduciary local branch boards. There’s a lot of volunteer power, if you will, within the Y.
Joe: Thank you. How long have you been on it? How long have you served on the board, and what roles have you held while you’ve been on the board?
Jennifer: I’ve served on the YMCA of the North Shore Board since 2007. I came onto that board at that time because I was the president of the Board of the Lynch/van Otterloo Y, which is the Marblehead Swampscott Branch so if you’re a branch president, board [00:30:00] president, you then move up to the corporate board, and once I moved up to the corporate board after my term ended, I was asked if I would stay on. I moved into a couple of different roles on the corporate board. As I mentioned previously, I was the treasurer at one point. I was the vice chair, and then I became the chair four years ago.
Joe: Terrific. Thanks so much. Jennifer. It’s been great speaking with you. Thanks for joining us today,
Jennifer: Thank you, Joe and Raza. It’s been a pleasure.
Joe: And thank you all for listening to On Boards with our guest, Jennifer Buras.
Raza: Please visit our website at OnBoardsPodcast.com. That’s OnBoardsPodcast.com. We’d love to hear your comments, suggestions, and feedback. And if you’re not already a subscriber, please be sure to subscribe at Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast, and remember to leave us a five-star review.
Joe: Please stay safe and take care of [00:31:00] yourselves, your families, and your communities as best you can. We hope you’ll tune in for the next episode of On Boards. Thanks.